I would like to propose a change in orientation for our Saturday rides at the September NCCC board meeting. (All club members are welcome). The riders are getting so strong and fast that the rides are very spread out. Slow riders complain that fast riders do not wait for them. Fast riders complain that regroups are excessively long.
I often hear that we need to have someone as ride sweep, but volunteering to ride sweep is too burdensome because a sweep ends up babysitting beginners who cannot handle our speed and distance. Additionally, few riders actually complete most rides: they take a different route, or drop out to head home, or get lost. We should not pretend that we will keep track of slower riders.
We need some alternatives to handle the variation in rider abilities. Perhaps we need more groups (same routes / different groups?). Or different ways of starting (fast riders first or last?). Or different ways of leading (call the leader?s cell phone if you need help). Or different routing (bonus miles routes for faster riders). Or different regrouping (fast/medium/easy). Or encourage ride buddies.
Our current Roadie description on the club website says:
The Roadies have two groups, Regular & Long. Regular rides are 35-45 miles and Long rides are 45-60 (sometimes longer) miles long. There are strong riders in each group but Long riders are faster and a bit more competitive. The Regular riders regroup more often and for longer times. Average speeds for the whole ride for Regular rides is 14-16 and 16-18 for the Long rides. We are not a "racing" oriented club. If someone really is too slow we make sure they know where they are and how to get back to the start. Route slips are provided for weekend rides. Please introduce yourself when you come out on a ride.
My proposal would say:
The Roadies have two groups, Regular & Long. Regular rides are 35-45 miles and average 14-17 mph for the whole ride. Long rides are 45-90 miles and average 17-19 mph. We are a recreational club and do not have a racing team. Route slips are provided for weekend Regular rides. Routes and regroupings are suggested, but optional. There is no formal sag support, and slower riders may be dropped. Please feel free to drop in uninvited, and introduce yourself when you come out on a ride.
I would also remove wording that suggests sag support: ?This is the perfect opportunity for those who want to ride longer and stronger without having to worry about being left behind.?
Hi Jeff,
Thank you for bringing this up. I'm on the slower end of the Roadies Regular group and agree that it would be helpful for many in the group if we tried to address the issues that you mentioned. I think there are various ideas floating around on ways to do it. For the newsletter changes, it might also be nice to add a member's phone number for newbies who want help figuring out if the Roadies are right for them. (I am willing to volunteer to do this.) That would allow us to provide a way to keep from scaring off people who could do just fine with us, and redirect those that can't.
Lisa
Hi Jeff:
I am not sure that the long ride average is as high as 17-19 miles an hour.. especially when they are doing 75- 90 miles of hills. Maybe even up Palomar.
If that is the average, then there are also those who want to ride Long .. > 50 miles that don't average that speed.
So maybe there needs to be more than one long rider group as well.
my .02
Judy
Jeff / Lisa,
I'm also new to road biking and found this site, but I feel intimated and haven't come out yet because I'm currently only riding 20-25 miles on Saturday's. I'm working on building up my speed and distance just to stay up with the group before coming out. I would have to agree with Lisa, if you want new riders to come out they need a starting point with a progression path to allow / encourage new riders to build up to the longer riders. Hopefully I'll attempt to join you within the month after I do the next ride with the Trek store (28 Miles).
On a personal note I find you site promoting recreation and excersize better the other riding groups that promote racing. I have 5 boys and I just want to stay in shape to keep up with them. Last year I built up my running to do the Rock and Roll Marathon but it killed my knees so I've taken up biking as an alternative and my new goal is be able to ride a century.
Grumpy.
;D Time to get up on the soapbox and do a little preachin'. This is aimed at Grumpy and all others who may feel a bit intimidated. The worst thing a new rider can do is think that they must keep up with the lead group. There are always sub-groups that form shortly after the start. They are mostly split up by speed and occasionally by the desire to modify a route to go around a nasty hill or stay out of a hot canyon, etc. When I am in one of these groups, I have no expectations on the lead group to wait at a designated stop. We have rolled into stops in the past to find the lead group had departed. The sub groups usually wind up back together at the stops. The point is not to fear riding because you think eveyone in the group is a jack rabbit with a coyote on it's tail. I don't get out with the club that often but when I do, I enjoy a more liesurley pace and conversation instead. Don't be intimidated by hiills-they are only varying degrees of attitude and when you take them on at your own pace instead of running your gas tank dry trying to keep up with a faster rider, you will get over the top and have plenty left to keep going. I will be out for the Labor Day ride and will make sure no one gets dropped or intimidated. The club is very diverse and it is a rare instance when you can't find someone to ride with. Come ride with us. Do it for the enjoyment of the ride, not to keep up with Jones. (Do we have anybody named Jones??) -John H
Thank you, John. I think we want to promote the attitude you have. I personally think the way the website is worded is just about right and to say "riders may be dropped" is pretty intimidating. Listening to some who ride both groups, the long group may actually regroup more often but for shorter time intervals. They recognize there is a dynamic range in pace and so come together a bit more often. If you really want to have multiple groups they should be well organized - most clubs have A, B, C, ... groups and well-defined leaders and routes for each. I believe that was the genesis of "Regular" and "Long" in the first place - prior to that just one big group. The current issue is actually a good sign as we have more people riding, but it does create more of the kinds of problems Jeff brings up and I do agree it's a good time to discuss. We just need to be a bit careful with how to proceed. I know Diana tried to promote 2 groups within the long group this month and it fell apart as the faster group just got too far ahead and it was expected everyone would regroup at a couple points. We recently had a few people move on to other clubs to ride at an even faster pace. The latter is what I want to avoid, as the reason I ride in a group is I enjoy all the people I have met in NC3 over the past 5 years; I can always beat myself up on my own if all I want is a workout. So I have no answers here, but it seems like an issue worth working through and I'm glad Jeff opened it up for discussion. A big attendance at the Board meeting, pre-empted by further discussion on this Board, might provide a better riding environment for all.
And there is a Jones - Steve is another reason I come out for NCCC rides ;)
Keep it simple.
I agree with several of the thoughts posted here.
Just have another "newbie" regular ride group, led by several seasoned riders who are willing to work with newer riders. There are several excellent club riders who come to mind here!
Maybe call them the "Short Group", to keep in line with the "Regular" and "Long" theme.
Ride a cut-off regular route, or design a new one. Maybe hit the Regular regroup point too!
Newer riders are often a little uncertain about joining a club, due to lack of experience and skills. Make it interesting and fun and they'll be back.
I make a good example; as lame as I am, I came back!!!
keep handing out those cards,
kellyjay
>:( Great idea!! The seasoned riders can show the "newbies" how to run through red stop lights, stop signs, and put the safety of others in danger. Much to the disdain of several motorists whose jaws were on their floorboards, that was quite a display that some of you put on this morning. The left turn onto Mesa was a real eye-popper. And you wonder why motorists have such ill thoughts towards cyclists. Not only did I get to witness your total disregard for the law and common sense, I got a very undeserved share of left-over dirty looks from motorists as I sat waiting for the GREEN LIGHT! Enough is enough. I have turned my last crank with NCCC. My apologies to anyone who may have wanted a liitle help on Monday's ride.
What JohnH just wrote is very concerning. I was thinking of coming out for the first time Monday, but if this is what the NCCC is all about I'm going to think twice. I would have to agree with JohnH that laws are there for a reason and what's being taught that if one leads and breaks the law the rest of the group follows.
Where is NCCC going, it appears that you just lost another rider...
I guess I'll ride by myself for a while longer.
Thanks JohnH for this very important information before I made a mistake.
>:( ???
Here is a reminder to those that JohnH noted by your own rules they state:
When riding with NCCC, obey traffic laws.
Check it out: http://northcountycycleclub.com/~northco1/pdf/NCCCRoadRidingRules.pdf
I hope what happened is rare and not normal. I notice that many view this thread but few will comment. If you want new riders to join we newbie's would like to hear for others in this group what they think on this topic. I would encourage others to comment.
Grumps,
I think John is having a really bad day.
As with any large group of people, there are those that follow the letter of the law and those that sometimes do and those that never do, (which is why we have prisons).
I"ve been riding on and off with NCCC since 02. I've witnessed my share of violators and on occasion have been one also.
No where in our by-laws does it state that this is our policy. We are all responsible for behaving while riding but it's ultimately up to the individual.
If you choose to not ride with NCCC because of this one statement, then it's most definately a loss for you, as we have some awesome people that are a blast to ride with. Talk to a bunch of members that ride every weekend to get a feel for the attitude of the club. Don't let one rouge individual make a decision for you.
Bob
Grumps,
I think some people don't respond because cycling shoud be fun and un-complicated. Sometimes we get to wired about a subject that in the long run just doesn't matter.
Please just ride and have fun.
Bob
Kellyjay,
I think that is a good idea.
Quote from: kellyjay on August 30, 2008, 05:38:25 AM
Just have another "newbie" regular ride group, led by several seasoned riders who are willing to work with newer riders. There are several excellent club riders who come to mind here!
Maybe call them the "Short Group", to keep in line with the "Regular" and "Long" theme.
Ride a cut-off regular route, or design a new one. Maybe hit the Regular regroup point too!
Quote from: Bob Burgess on August 30, 2008, 08:55:11 PM
Grumps,
I think John is having a really bad day.
As with any large group of people, there are those that follow the letter of the law and those that sometimes do and those that never do, (which is why we have prisons).
I"ve been riding on and off with NCCC since 02. I've witnessed my share of violators and on occasion have been one also.
No where in our by-laws does it state that this is our policy. We are all responsible for behaving while riding but it's ultimately up to the individual.
If you choose to not ride with NCCC because of this one statement, then it's most definately a loss for you, as we have some awesome people that are a blast to ride with. Talk to a bunch of members that ride every weekend to get a feel for the attitude of the club. Don't let one rouge individual make a decision for you.
Bob
Bob,
This is why I'm trying to get feedback from other's, I know your always going to have someone that's not happy regardless how good it is. Because of your statements, I may re-evaluate my decision.
Thanks for offering your personal comments.
Grumpy.
Grumpy - The best way to get feedback is to ride the rides and talk to the members. The Message Board is more for information as it is required, and, as administrator of the Board, I can inform you that it is a very small cross-section of the club who post regularly. As Bob mentioned, we don't sit on-line all day looking for things to pop up on the Message Board - we just ride. For those who read the Message Board, the discussion may certainly give ideas for improvement, but like Bob, I show up for rides every Sat and Sun, and always have a great time, not to mention having met a set of people with similar interests I would never have met otherwise.
- Karl
Same roads,
Same rules,
Same rights!
P.S. I miss you "purple"!
Jeff,
From my perspective being relatively new to cycling and also to NCCC, I hope that you can find a way to retain the diversity found on the Saturday regular rides. It was with great apprehension that I showed up the first Saturday. I did not know anyone, or what to expect on the ride and if I was going to be dropped. Once we got going, I was relieved that there both faster and slower riders and there were several friendly riders that were running at a pace that I could maintain. I had a great time, and after a few more good rides ended up joining the club.
I like the fact that as I improve I am able to ride with faster riders, or on other days I can ride with slower riders. I hope you retain the diversity on the Saturday rides.
If we do not want to assign people to keep track of every rider, then the sentence ?If someone really is too slow we make sure they know where they are and how to get back to the start.? should be toned down or removed. I think that saying, ?you may be dropped?, would scare off all but strong riders.
While the club may not want to accept any liability for dropped riders, I would say that one of the inferred values of a club is that it will take care of it?s own.
Some actions for consideration:
1) Ask that no one be allowed to ride alone. If you have been riding with someone, and they are dropping behind, to the extent of running solo with no one else in sight, please wait for them.
2) Have each person Identify a buddy at the beginning of a ride to keep track of missing riders at regroops. I Also let people know if you do not plan to complete the designated route.
3) Perhaps there could be three speed/level groups, and each one responsible for waiting for their own at regroups. Someone else mentioned A,B,C groupings. At the beginning of each ride everyone can ?self? designate themselves to one group. After the first ride, you will figure out where you fit in. Some of the elders in the group can coach new comers. I think that designating a group leader is not necessary.
By the way: Thanks for preparing the route slips and holding the safety talks before each ride.
Quote from: Jeff Gross on August 26, 2008, 08:49:21 PM
The Roadies have two groups, Regular & Long. Regular rides are 35-45 miles and average 14-17 mph for the whole ride. Long rides are 45-90 miles and average 17-19 mph. We are a recreational club and do not have a racing team. Route slips are provided for weekend Regular rides. Routes and regroupings are suggested, but optional. There is no formal sag support, and slower riders may be dropped. Please feel free to drop in uninvited, and introduce yourself when you come out on a ride.
I agree with Jeff. That's a much more accurate description of the reality of the NCCC groups (for example, making it clear that the only group that has ride slips anymore is the regular). I'd say we should make that change in the description on the web site.
I'm going to put my $0.02 worth in.
I"m a slow rider, my average is usually in the 14 mph range, so if you are thinking of joining you should be able to ride a minimum of 14 mph for close to 40 miles. I'm in the group that usual ends up watching out for the new riders who can't keep up. Actual I'm slightly faster than some of the slow riders so I don't always watch out for the stragglers, Dee and Carol do that, which is good because they are much nicer and friendlier than me. I think its great that people feel we should have a no drop policy, but the sad fact is, the people suggesting this are not the ones who will end up watching the stragglers. There have been several rides when someone is our group is really struggling and we end up way out of sight of the main group. The only people who have ever come back to check on us are Lou and Greg (who are friends) and Jeff (who feels responsible). I know some folks say "we didn't know if you were slow or taking a short cut", but the fact is we ALWAYS tell someone when we are going to cut the ride short.
The point I'm trying to make is, while several people think we should have a no-drop policy, it will end up being 4 or 5 of us who have to implement that policy, the rest of the group will keep doing what they are currently doing with no thoughts given to stragglers.
I apologize if I sound a little abrupt and curt, and I know Dee and Carol would jump up and say they don't mind watching out for new people, but its the principle that bothers me. Everyone is for a no drop policy as long as it doesn't effect their ride.
Letitia
Perhaps more description may help the first timer to fully understand what to expect; here's a suggestion:
"The Roadies have two groups; Regular & Long. Regular rides are 35-45 miles and include riders of various abilities averaging between 14-18 mph for the entire ride. Long rides are 45-90 miles and average 17-19 mph. We are a recreational club and do not have a racing team. Route slips are provided for weekend Regular rides and regroupings within both groups is the norm but not mandatory. There is no formal sag support and slower riders are encouraged to hold the last wheel or be dropped. Please feel free to drop in uninvited, and introduce yourself when you come out on a ride."
I've been riding with the regular group since March and very much appreciate Jeff's attitude and leadership.
Joe
Joe:
The way you have worded it is fine with me but, I really don't think that all Long riders are in the 17-19 mile per hour group either. Just a point to keep in mind when revising the policy.
I have ridden with them and there is no way I average 17mph.. especially when there is a lot of climbing.. or when going very long. (and climbing)
THere are really 2 groups in the Long Riders as well. And, there is no reason why others would not want to go long... even if not as fast... You don't push the hard pace on a 90 mile ride. Sometimes I think the regular riders are faster than the long riders. It depends on who shows up. (and if you are in the front or the back :))
I think perhaps if you want to join any group there should be a way of finding out the route in advance so that if you get dropped you can find you way onward or back.. or perhaps catch up at a stop or if there are flats.
Also, you can bring a buddy with you that rides at your pace.
Even if there are no route slips, someone can orally tell you the route or post it on the website. It doesn't work well if you are not that familiar with the area or the routes. If the long riders want to post 17-19mph as their speed then I guess you need to expect to get dropped and find your own way back. There are always days when someone might not be feeling great and have to get home on their own more slowly anyway so you should always be able to be self sufficient. I don't like to make people wait for me and I don't particularly like to wait long on others either. If there is too much discrepency in the group then there should be 2 groups.
I have gotten faster by trying to stay with the group..I don't mind riding on my own if I get dropped and have ended up in front of them at times by using the rabbit and the hare strategy.. I just keep going.
I think everyone should be welcome to come to the rides but, if they can't keep the pace they should be prepared to find their way home. Other clubs sometimes have separate rides for newbies.. Maybe once a month someone might volunteer to do a newbie ride.. this might help them to learn bike handling skills in a group as well to make the ride safer for everyone.
Jeff does a great job of planning the rides! Thanks Jeff!
Judy
I have to agree 100% with Letitia's post. I'm just slightly faster than she is, so I'm also usually at the back of the rides and it's exactly as she describes it. The truth is we're not going to be able to make everyone happy. We're going to have to try to find a way to do the best we can, knowing that we won't be able to accommodate everyone. There isn't a single bike club out there that can accommodate every level of rider. I think we do way better than most and are a friendly group, but there is a limit, even for us.
I've been a member of the club for 19 years and I've seen it change in various ways over the years and I've had to make my own decisions at various times about whether to continue to go on club rides. I keep coming because I enjoy the people and most of the rides, and some of my best friends have come from the club. During rides (even before now) I've often ended up either at the back by myself or somewhere in the middle of the group by myself. And as Letitia says, either nobody is watching out for those of us that end up in that position, or there are a few people that will check on us if they are on the ride and not too far ahead. Dee and Carol will help out slower newcomers, but they both have other interests and things going on in their lives and often aren't at the Saturday rides. For the last several months when there have been rides scheduled rides that go into areas where I don't like being by myself I call around to see if anyone will be at the ride that I think I will be able to ride with, or I find a way to shorten the ride and stay out of areas where I don't want to be alone, or I stay home and ride by myself in areas where I am comfortable.
I think Jeff is right on to say that slower riders may get dropped. We might be able to find a softer way to word it, but it's the truth. It's just as hard on people like Letitia and I to have to wait for riders who are 2 mph slower than we are, as it is for the fastest riders to have to wait for us. People shouldn't have to spend 45 minutes of a ride waiting. I've done that. It's too hard to cool off and warm up five or six or seven times during a ride. We know what the speeds are of the slower riders and I think we need to advertise that people who want to ride with us should be able to ride at least that pace. We can redirect other riders to clubs that might be a better fit for them. That's why there are different types of clubs. The other issue is, there aren't many of us slower riders and it's hard to say if any of us will be on a ride on any given Saturday to look out for those newcomers who might show up and be able to ride our speed. Are those of you who think we should try to accommodate everyone willing to pick up the slack when we aren't there? Are you willing to lead the beginner rides you are suggesting? Are you willing to spend a total of 45 minutes to an hour waiting for people who come out and can only ride 12 to 14 mph? I might be wrong, but my guess is the answer is no. Which means we need to be honest in our advertising and try to help those who can't keep up with us find other options.
I think if we can find people who are willing to lead beginner rides, we should have one a month, rather than one every week. We might actually be able to sustain it that way. I also like the idea of trying to informally split into groups of different speeds at the beginning of the rides, so that hopefully everyone will have at least one other person to ride with. I think it's clear that we aren't going to find enough volunteers to regularly have formal A, B and C groups.
Finally, I want to say a public thank you to Jeff for the many years of effort he has put into being our ride leader. We don't have a lot of people who are willing to do what he has done. He is there almost every week, week after week, month after month, year after year, often even when he isn't able to ride. He has created all kinds of new and interesting (and hard :-) routes, and he's helped us out a lot by posting all of the route slips on his web site.
Lisa
Getting dropped is a good excuse to stop and have a leisurely lunch.
Fajitas burrito last Saturday.
Now there's a positive attitude!
I read Judy's last post before I wrote mine. I like a lot of what she has to say about providing enough information and assistance so people can be self-sufficient if they can't quite keep up, but would like to come out and ride with us and try to get stronger. That's pretty much how I've approached it. When I first started with the club I carried maps so I could find my way back if I got dropped and got lost. I don't expect people who are a lot faster than I am to wait for me. I sure do appreciate it when they do, but I don't expect it.
Lisa